Thanks to an anonymous commenter who provided this link for our information.
As I read this, I kept saying to myself, Oh my God, this is us.
It has changed my mind about having a management company, covenant enforcement officer and other issues. It brought to mind the profits gained by contracting out services and attorney fees. There is a lot of topics, which I have yet to read. I suggest you start with the first topic "Full article about HOA Syndrome" Click on it.
Click on the link at the bottom for quick access.
HOA SYNDROME:
You May Be Entitled to Damages
You May Be Entitled to Damages
A Two-Tailed Psychiatric Disorder
“History bequeaths a demonstrative message: Some who gain a position of power will inevitably strike down the rights of others, animals and humans, in the name of greed, grandiosity, and evil sadistic gratification. Brief time passes, societies crumble under the weight of rise to power, and without learning prior lessons, the disgorging cycle once again begins.”http://www.hoasyndrome.com/Hoasyndrome.html
63 comments:
HOA's are not places that readily accommodate those who see themselves as elite or mavericks. It takes a willingness to cooperate that some people do not possess. People who do not have a mindset of cooperation and caring about their neighbors as they would like to be cared for themselves should never buy into an HOA. They won't like it if they do and they will make themselves and everyone around them miserable.
I am confused by 10:33's statement. Are you blaming the victim? Most of us see ourselves as the ideal you describe, yet are trammeled under by a toxic structure even the perpetrators do not understand. I would love it if you would read up on the link George lists, and then come back and let's have a discussion.
The elitists and the mavericks see themselves as not subject to the rules that others follow. With self centered goals and little or no regard for others, these two kinds of HOA members victimize others.
Thinking that any hoa is a static entity, is unrealistic. Things change. Get used to it. Even dictatorships change in time. They usually end badly.
You are repeating yourself 12:06. Have you got anything useless to add to the discussion?
The elder abuse section is malignant crap that does not appear to apply to Surfside. There are legal alternatives to deal with actual elder abuse either in or out of a homeowners association. No matter the age of a member, if they are not prepared financially to live up to the rules in an association they made a purchasing mistake and should correct that with a move to a more affordable living situation.
12:01
This topic and link provided is not about failure to enforce the covenants. You need to read it and then make relevant comments.
12:01
Your attempt to make the topic about me has failed. Read the link.
The HOA only has authority to set standards on exterior elements of member homes and properties. There are no specific requirements in Surfside considering that most properties have landscaping that does not require much maintenance.
Many homes have cedar shingles or natural siding so may have very little painting to maintain. So what are these violations these "rule breakers are guilty of ? None of these people who claim violations are rampant, can say specifically what the violations are. Most of these claims center on RV lots not getting mowed in the off season, someone's wood pile is "ugly", and other trivial nonsense.
From my vantage point, there seem to be haughty claims that the most sterling individuals are always without fault, and everyone else is a "violator" - just a blanket assumption that everyone else is out to offend their neighbors and ignore community standards. This is the typical attitude of the righteous, to buoy their self-confidence and reassure themselves they are special.
It's a bad attitude, and these claims of members so pure cannot be verified as true. Most compliance matters are a judgement call, and most "violations" are inadvertent, and once called to the owner's attention, quickly remedied. The whole Tree Policy circus is another matter all together. Most owners who are put upon to conform to ridiculous limits find it unnecessary and an annoyance, yet there is no intention by the HOA to modify or end this damaging policy.
So how does the Tree Comm. determine when an owner is not in compliance ? How many inches over the specified limit is a violation ? The trees don't tell the owners, and owners aren't likely to have the ability to measure their trees accurately. So are you required to trim trees limited to 14 feet, at 12 feet ? How about if you keep them 4 inches over or under the limit ?
I find this particularly weird, in that it seems you are never left alone if you have trees on your property, and are potentially non-compliant half the time. This constant busy-work creates 3/4 of the compliance issues in this community. So, once again, WHAT are the other violations that are so concerning to the busy-bodies ?
So how would the HOA deal with it if ALL of the owners who hate the Tree Policy file complaints ? Doesn't the HOA need to take THEIR opinions seriously ? "We hate the Tree Policy. It is a blatantly unfair policy that serves only the J Place owners, damages healthy trees, and makes our community UGLY. Please end this terrible policy. --- signed, Most of the Surfside owners".
There you go folks ! I wrote it for ya, now everyone send in your complaint.
I'm sorry Mr. Cox, but I don't agree with you. I do Not live on J. place, but want the tree height restriction. I personally feel that safety is the reason for tree height restrictions. I also feel it would be a shame to turn the east of Surfside into a forest and very dangerous.
My opinion.
1:54 makes a whole lot of common sense. SHOA, THE CIRCUS: run by a bunch of clowns. What a pitiful mess we have.
What does Mr. Cox's comment have to do with this topic?
I have not been aware that anyone has been suggesting using one of the HOA Management companies for Surfside. There have been many comments calling for a capable and unbiased General Manager which I think would be a good start toward getting Surfside on track.
Fair and timely enforcement of the covenants should replace the current complaint system in Surfside. The friction and distrust could be greatly diminished with a professional person managing covenant compliance including building a statistical data base on which to look at any revisions to the covenants.
Cox is off topic. Please stay on topic. The rants about the tree covenant don't belong here. Mr. Cox seems to think that it is a "tree policy". He should spend more time reviewing the covenants so that he knows that many issues are covered by the covenants. I and my wife support the tree policy and we live no where near where there is a view.
My wife wants to strangle me because I said that we support the tree policy. We support the tree covenants. We have worked hard when trees have fallen or shredded in the storms in the past. There is no solid reason to endanger human lives and property with uncared for trees crashing over.
enforcing covenants and fining those who fail to live up to the covenants is definitely part of the topic as presented. i think a comment was removed that I wanted to address. damn.
Yes the topic is more about administration and why those in power abuse their positions. The topic also illustrates the harmful results financial, health issues and property values. While Mr. Cox is somewhat off topic, It is and always has been the blog policy that anyone who has the integrity and courage to use their name, is never edited or deleted. That policy prevails over being off topic. I prefer to stay on topic, but often allow the conversation to stray. I think this topic is so important, we need to stick with the topic. Thanks.
In Professor Gary Solomon's article he states under "The Solution" and I quote, "To date there has been No exposed solution to this growing social atrocity that causes HOA syndrome"
So, my question is, what are we do do?
Hire a bold, capable and honest General Manager with a full time covenant enforcement employee. Get rid of Business Manager and any other employee who kow tows to the board at the expense of the general membership.
Two problems: who does the hiring, and how do you keep them from being corrupted by the board?
Solving that problem is above my pay grade. Flood and Williams out of the picture would be a step in the right direction.
I wonder how many buyers here were looking forward to "covenant enforcement" as part of their HOA membership. Really? I was thinking I was paying for garbage, water, and security and at least somebody was watching the neighborhood. But I never thought oh good I can make trouble over rusty cars or messy lawns. Did you?
Firing employees does us no good at this point. Changes in the Board need to take place, or this will go nowhere. It is not in their self interest.
It was pitched as a membership for services, not an evil empire.
I thought that retiring to an HOA would give me some protections from looking at messy and ugly houses, unkempt lots, abandoned cars, vacant RV's, ugly and multiple storage sheds, obnoxious noises, obnoxious lighting, obnoxious and unhealthy smoke and etc. as noted in the covenants. I'd happily pay for refuse services and healthy water on my own if the covenants would be fully enforced without someone achieving a level or frustration and anger sufficient to file a written complaint. I absolutely was looking forward to covenant enforcement as I had relied on in two other HOA's that I had owned property.
Lucky me. I've got haphazard, enemy making covenant enforcement, questionable water which requires expensive filtering and do it yourself refuse service. Add to that, a few of the neighbors want to take away a few of the covenants that do get some enforcement attention.
I see the people who settled here with a goal to ignore or break the covenants as a major problem. I see them as a threat to my peace of mind, safety and comfort in my remaining retirement years.
So here we go again. "Ugly sheds, unkempt lots, vacant RVs, obnoxious stuff." When owners are not using their RVs, the RVs are vacant - just like houses. There really aren't any set standards for yard care, so those without lawns aren't really required to do anything in particular to "maintain" them. Many people have float collections, and have found objects in their yards as part of the landscaping. Some are artistically done, some are not so much.
The garbage system has been the same for decades, so what's the gripe ? The community is in the process of trying to solve our water quality problems. It's not as if it isn't on the radar.
And the absurd reference to "people who settled here with a goal to ignore or break covenants." Seriously ? You know adults who buy property with this as a goal ? I doubt it.
There are no rampant violators, or "people who settle here to break covenants." Not all violations can be easily resolved. It's just a fact that you'll have to accept. People die, people become unable to fend for themselves, many other issues can make resolving non-compliance and decrepit properties difficult and legally challenging.
The HOA's obsession with tree heights dominate the enforcement in this community. Obsessions with trivial enforcement is the most common source of conflict in HOA communities. That is my point, and not off topic.
Sounds like 5:28 is looking for a rest home, not a mixed use area by the sea.
5:28 should have paid up for what they want n bought in one of our gated communities, stead of buyin on the cheap.
5:28 and others with this thinking should sue the hoa for failure to deliver what is in the governing documents.
5:28 does not sound very well balanced. The arrogance and rigid control echoes jackboot fascism. Ditto: "Obsessions with trivial enforcement"
Where does it say in the legal documents that the covenants will only be enforced if a written complaint is made?
5:28 is making up things. " looking at messy and ugly houses, unkempt lots, abandoned cars, vacant RV's, ugly and multiple storage sheds, obnoxious noises, obnoxious lighting, obnoxious and unhealthy smoke and etc. as noted in the covenants" does not exist. That is not in the covenants. That is bully talk.
The most successful HOA I know of requires the complaining property owner to file his own lawsuit to enforce a supposed violation, The community is quiet, people get along just fine.
Read the covenants 8:16. You have no clue what you are talking about.
This starts out like a TV info-commercial by a long winded author then develops quickly into conspiracy theory backed up and bombarded by "facts" and scare tactics. Waste of time folks!
I posted at 5:28. I regret that I did that. It is evident that this blog is not interested in hearing from me or my friends. If you have plans to peacefully live out your retirement in Surfside don't do it. The disrespect shown to retirees via unenforced covenant violations makes Surfside a poor choice for quiet and peaceful retirees.
You are correct 7:39 - Surfside is for active adults that don't always require peace and quiet. I would suggest a dedicated retirement community for you. Good luck. BTW: I will live here throughout my retirement, I like the way things are and tolerate a little disruption from time to time, it keeps the blood pumping.
I want to say something: 5:28 displays contempt,anger, and disrespect for the neighborhood. 5:28 has the authority to file complaints against neighbors. He uses abusive language and exaggerates. This is why the complaint driven system is abusive. It puts the dynamic in the hands of sadistic, irrational people - actually anybody who has a property. Then it puts an office staff in the middle, who are not trained for that - nobody is. The unprofessional results are a windfall waiting for an attorney to make a buck here. George's link is a great beginning.
the attacks on 5:28 are exactly why surfside is not a good community. it is embarrassing that a responsible retiree would be attacked this way.
A responsible retiree does not use abusive language and hyperbole, or expect everybody to walk on eggshells. I thank 5:28 for his candor as it shines a light on how one abuser can wreck the whole neighborhood.
can you please identify what you felt was abusive language or hyperbole in the 5:28 comment? i didn't see it. i saw a person who made the decision to buy here relying on what the documents said surfside would be. big disappointment
We need some reliable data. I think that the majority of members are retired folks like 5:28. Many of them are the volunteers on the Board and Committees who live here year around or most of the year. Some of them are RV members who want some quiet time at the beach for part of the year. They want a well run association with healthy water and sensible rules that are enforced without mean spirited complaints.
One more time I ask, are there members and board members who are supporting the idea of hiring a professional HOA management company for Surfside?
I agree on the data. The statement that most folks are retired may be true, but I would not say that my retired neighbors are "like 5:28. " There have been some problem properties like a bank-owned derelict. That is sensible. The water is an ongoing project. Not only do we need some good data, we also need a general manager.
9:00.... As I already said at 7:01 yesterday, your list of grievances do not necessarily qualify as violations. They are all judgement calls, subject to more specific information. The covenants do not set specific guidelines for most of this stuff.
1) If a vehicle runs, it is not considered abandoned or a violation.
2) The covenants refer to an appearance of being neat and well maintained, but give no standards by which to judge. Most owners prefer a natural landscape. Lawns require irrigation systems and mowing, where many landscapes need only to be weeded occasionally. Many part-time residents don't want to bother with lawns.
3) "Ugly" is not a universal standard, but a personal assessment.
4) Vacant RVs are not a violation unless it's Winter, and the owner does not have an approved extension on its' use.
5) The County ordinances allow for more than one shed on properties with a home. The Surfside covenants do not specifically forbid more than one shed, so it is possible that there are owners who have been allowed more than one. Stickbuilt properties also can have a shop and garage, where RV lots cannot.
6) "Obnoxious" like "ugly", is not a standard that can be easily determined. Smoke from neighbor campfires is short term, and is an issue that neighbors need to negotiate cordially, if possible. Same goes for "noises". These are not matters the HOA can effectively dictate unless extreme.
All of this railing about rampant violations can never be verified.
Cox, 5:28 has a right to have an opinion. Did you forget that? BTW, 5:28 made no allegations or complaints. The comment was about hoping for protection from possible annoying issues. We bother to read your goofy opinions without picking each word apart. Why not extend the same courtesy to others?
You haven't followed the strand very carefully. 5:28 has a right to an opinion, but IS complaining, and HAS BEEN. There's no point in putting the community under a microscope, exaggerating perceived non-compliance.
I certainly have opinions, but most of what I share on the blog is what the covenants and County ordinances ACTUALLY say, rather than what I imagine they say, and offer what I have learned from experience on an HOA Board elsewhere.
If offering facts and experience strikes you as "goofy", so be it. I'll stick with goofy. There's no point in wringing your hands over imaginary compliance issues, and disgust that this is not an immaculate and highly regulated community.
Enforcers in the community write their own complaints if necessary, so this notion that enforcement is strictly complaint-driven is false. There is no compliance crisis. 3/4 of the compliance issues are related to tree restrictions which serve about 2 to 300 owners out of over 2000 households. It's a waste of time and creates conflict without good reason.
11:14 AM one more time I ask. Are you willing to have your dues go up by a substantial amount to hire a professional management team? You can't have one without the other. You're really only talking about one individual (Laura) and then possibly changes to the water management.
To my knowledge, 5:28 has never commented on this blog previously and plans on never commenting again due to the belligerent crap following his comment.
so 943 are you saying that you are 528? if so you may have re-worded that last comment from "to my knowledge" to "I am 528 and have never commented.." either way good bye.
5:28 is an acquaintance who called me to talk about his comment and the response to it.
Please remind your friend that bullies only succeed if you don't put up a fight.
The hate in the responses to 5:28 makes me feel ashamed of Surfside.
5:28 is not the only one who retired here thinking they would have a stress free life. There are far more retirees that are subject to harassment for minor nothings. I also am ashamed of surfside, because of the few that have no empathy for anyone but themselves. This includes board trustees, committee people and staff. They are the ones to blame for the surfside shame, not a response on this blog.
You people just don't get it. We are not a retirement community a trailer park, investment speculation, or RV site. We are a recreational community. We consist of some things for everyone. The problem is that we have some who want every thing to be for them. These are the ones willing to spend the energy and time, be on the board and committees, to insure their selfish interests prevail. Some members have had enough and are fighting back. The ugly truth is being exposed. Thank you to the blog for providing a real place where the members can speak and the ugly truth is revealed.
Let's see valid data to prove your opinion is right 3:51. Also, would you care to specifically define what "recreational community" means. I can't find a definition of that anywhere.
Found one. Here is a recreational community for our RV and camping members as copied from online site.
Welcome to Lake Tyee
Come discover one of the "best kept secrets" in the Pacific Northwest.
Nestled in the North Cascade Mountains, near the border between the United States and Canada, a serene lake rests in the shadow of snow-capped Mt. Baker. Bald eagles often soar overhead. It is not unusual for an evening grosbeak, sitting on a twig, to observe a lone fisherman in his canoe, as he glides silently across the Lake.
Lake Tyee is among the largest recreational communities in Washington State. A 55 acre lake is surrounded by 520 acres of woodland. Intermingled among the trees are 886 camping lots, where people enjoy campfires, games, hiking, fishing, and a variety of social activities. Members own the title deed to their own lot, allowing them to use the park facilities for up to 210 days during the year. The park is a recreational community and does not offer permanent residence. It is open year round for both summer and winter recreation. Here, people respect and live in harmony with nature.
There is no mechanism by which RV owners can be denied their rights to own property for RV use in Surfside.
Owners of all lots in Surfside can only be denied membership should they fail to pay community dues and assessments, and fail to respond to compliance notices and fines.
RVs are here to stay, so there's every reason to show them the same respect as the homeowners, and for all neighbors to keep lines of communication open and cordial.
Thanks for sharing the website information. I've talked about some of this stuff on the blog before. Some folks are drawn to the opportunity to micro-manage other people's business, while some are satisfied simply trying to serve where help is needed.
It is interesting delving into the psychological reasons for this phenomenon, but it's pretty prevalent, and understanding the psychology doesn't make it go away. We have a classic case of it going on in Surfside. Enforcement obsessing over trifles, delusions of entitlement in the Boardroom, a wasteful lawsuit that is simply a show of HOA power. And the seated Trustees are all complicit, reappointing Williams as president.
The community has not been adequately supportive of efforts to clean up BOT business practices, insist on full transparency, give the membership more of a voice in our governance, and easier voting on-line.
I always found the phenomenon of armchair psychologists quite interesting. Most people wouldn't consider giving advice on surgical techniques but some have no problem playing the shrink. I find it's nothing more than about them needing to validate their opinion. Got that from an episode of Frasier.
It's a typical human characteristic to have opinions on many things that we know very little about, and I doubt you any different. The articles are written by a psychologist, and not a pretend one. Still, we all observe phenomenon that begs for an explanation, and we refer to what we know and observe in others to try to understand.
Generally speaking, calm and considerate gets more respect than being a bully or a "badass".
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